Tape Recordings of top Virgin Lawyer (3)
The following transcripts are taken from phone calls that were tape recorded on my home phone.
Josh Bayliss (JB) is the Chief Legal Counsel for the Virgin Group.
Will Whitehorn (WW) is the most senior figure in Virgin next to Richard Branson and is now CEO of Virgin Galactic.
JS is me.
Context: Josh Bayliss and I are talking about Virgin's plans to make money from encouraging patients who are young and healthy to join their NHS patient lists whilst ignoring people who are elderly and unwell as they will 'put a great strain on resources' (ie cost Virgin more to treat therefore making them less profit.)
See Pulse article on this subject.
Download Tape Recording of this conversation.
JB “Obviously this business has to make money”
JS “The big concern that GPs and the general public have is that commercial organisations moving into private healthcare will profiteer, profiteer by looking at it as a market where they need to source the most lucrative patients and that’s not what healthcare is about is it?”
JB “err..It depends on whether you are talking about healthcare as a business or healthcare as an altruistic…umm”
JS “If you are going to admit… that you are looking on it as a business; 'we are not particularly altruistic about this we are looking to make money out of this and if that means not treating the people that most need healthcare' – can you see how that is going to look?”.......
JB: To the extent that people do (need healthcare) and are able to pay for it – we could end up like the American system.
JS: “I think the American system is wrong in principle and poor in practice – the British system is absolutely right in principle but poor in practice – and because it’s poor in practice that leaves a loophole for commercial organisations to come in and say ‘These are the lucrative patients that we need to make money out of, this is how we should shape our business and Taw Hill is the perfect example of how to shape that business.’
Now what that means is that people who do need healthcare the most, Virgin are really saying we don’t want to treat them because they are not ‘lucrative’ for us.
If you defend that from a business point of view you might be able to – your commercial friends might be able to say “well, that is fine” but the British public will completely freak and you know they will do…GPs, British Medical Association, all the newspapers will say ‘So what they are saying is, their commercial argument is that they are not going to treat the ill people because this is a business after all’ – you can see the point Josh
JB – “I can see the point – I’m just not sure it’s illegal or unethical.
JS “Oh, no – not illegal – I wouldn’t accuse you of that – but unethical? – Yes.”
JS – Where are you from - originally?
JB “New Zealand”
JS “ I don’t know what it’s like in New Zealand but in this country the NHS is a secular sacred cow – people are more concerned about the NHS than anything else and all I’m saying is that they have been worried for years about commercial companies and Virgin have come in and say “We won’t profiteer – it’s freedom of access to all” and it’s not.
Really what you are saying is that as a commercial organisation you have the right to make profit if that means siting your clinic in an area where there are people who will bring in more profit for you, even though they don't need healthcare for anything serious - it means that those who do need healthcare don’t get seen to by you”
JB “Uh, Uh, I mean yeh I guess the er, the er idea that you have to start somewhere is important and they selected that site, I’m sure, for all sorts of different reasons”
JS “One of the reasons that Taw Hill was selected, and again, there is evidence of this on the (VHC mainframe) computer, is that Peter Crouch, the GP, was in debt and there is a sentence in one of the reports, I can’t remember which one, which says that “as he is in so much need of our help we don’t feel there will be much emotional resistance to our plans with him”
So, basically he is terribly in debt, so that’s one of the reasons that it’s been chosen – it’s got lots of kit and I think there is a document there that is quite explicit in saying ‘he is in debt, therefore, basically, we can encourage him to go along with our plans”
I think that is pretty damning.”
JB - “Uh, I would be amazed if there was a document that says that” (See document here).
JS – “Would you like me to send it to you?
Second phone call with Josh Bayliss:
Context: Mr Bayliss has suggested that if I go the Guardian newspaper with my concerns:
“It will be very harmful if this gets out - so you should try and stop that”.
Mr Bayliss asks that I ‘recover’ the documents I have left with the Guardian (in return for a good job reference).
I suggest, as a compromise, that we discuss my concerns with my MP:
JB “If your MP gets involved – then we involve another person in the loop… and this is something we should be sorting out between ourselves – trying to involve as few people as possible”
“The other difficulty with an MP is his motives – his interests shall I say are not necessarily aligned with what the objective right thing to do here – he’ll be focussed on a range of other issues”
JS “My feeling, when I spoke to Will Whitehorn yesterday, who wasn’t very happy, he said you have got to make a Protected Disclosure to the right person and I just feel that as someone who is a democratically elected individual that wants the truth out there and it obliged to act honourably – I just think it is a good idea if you consent to it”
“JB “I do think its quite difficult to be perfectly honest with you – I have got to say what you just said about his starting point is no surprise to me and so I think we are not necessarily dealing with someone who is either objective or has either your or my best interests at heart”
JS – “But my feeling is that is a good point – that really what he has at heart is an interest to make sure this gets out in a clear and controlled and transparent manner – but I take your point”
JB “The best thing to do here is for you and me to talk to each other about it – the risk is whilst the documents are out there with The Guardian there is the risk that we could be having the most constructive process going and it could get blown apart because of some journalist… they will tend to shoot first and ask questions later and that’s my worry”
Transcript of a telephone conversation between Will Whitehorn (WW) and John Spencer -
JS: “Hi Will, sorry to bother you again – It’s John Spencer from Virgin Healthcare”
WW: “ Hi”
JS: “Hi….. I’m afraid that my emails to Josh are still being blocked despite the fact he said he’d freed them, I have suggested that my local MP which might be a better solution”
WW: “Listen, can I just say something to you John – I don’t work for Virgin Group right? I run a business called Virgin Galactic – you called me in Japan and woke me up at 4 in the morning”
JS: “Well your assistant said it would be midday over there – he said I could phone you now.”
WW: “Hang on, I’ve just got back from Japan OK…… whatever your problem is with Virgin Healthcare is between you and them….I passed on your contact details to Josh Bayliss – he will deal with you.”
JS: “But he is not dealing with me well I am afraid”
WW: “Well I am sorry (raising voice) it’s a Saturday afternoon … whatever your problem is you can deal with him on Monday morning can’t you?”
JS: – “No, no I can’t because this is going to go to my MP on Sunday”
WW: – “Well, do you know what, I think, at the end of the day from what I have understood of this situation I really find it very hard to understand what you are going on about. I know very little about it and I am not going to be involved with it.”
JS: “So you wouldn’t like to know more about what is going on?”
WW: “So you are calling me three times today (sic) and I have just got back from Japan – it’s not right.”
JS: “But the problem is Will, that no-one else is going to talk to me and I think they don’t want to talk to me”
WW: “I have nothing to do with this – if Josh feels he wants to talk to you or doesn’t want to talk to you he is Virgin’s lawyer – that’s fine put your MP in touch with him tomorrow – you know, if you are going to see your MP about it”
JS – “yeah, I was concerned to talk to you because as I understand it you have been a long-standing friend of Sir Richards…”
WW: “You know I think, you know, you’ve made a string of allegations put them fully in writing to Josh, he will deal with the matter”
JS “I have done – I think this is going to be of significant national concern, it’s going to seriously damage the Virgin brand unless this is handled more intelligently by Virgin”
WW – “Listen, we haven’t even set the business up yet”
JS – “That’s not the point though is it? It was going to occur”
WW: “It was going to occur? – I honestly don’t know what you are talking about. Personally speaking I think the whole idea of the business is a bad idea and I wish we had never been involved in it.”
JS: “Yes, I sympathise with you and I know you are not involved in it.”
WW: “It’s people like you who would ruin the chance for something like this to happen”
JS: “Well, no, I am actually a great supporter of it”
WW: “You are dealing with the NHS, dealing with people who go round in circles, never fixing the problems and complaining about things that haven’t even happened yet.
I don’t know what this is all about, I am not going to be involved in it”
JS: “OK Will”
WW: “…and on your bidding sir I have passed on the number…. Please now, deal with the individual I will email him again to tell him that you have called again”
JS: “Yes, but he’s not calling me Will
You probably don’t realise (and I have some sympathy for you) how serious this. I’ve got evidence that Virgin Healthcare are looking to, and I quote “Source the most lucrative patients” ie those that are healthy (WW interrupts in the background “Oh God”) , and ignore those that aren’t and are in need of desperate healthcare – that seems fairly serious and that they are hiding the way that they are paying GPs in the back pocket for referrals for referring on to private patients.
The Guardian think this is a national story, I’m trying to resolve it with Virgin.”
WW: “Will the Guardian run this story sir?”
JS: “The Guardian will run it, yeah.”
WW: “Oh they will, will they?"
JS: “Yes.”
(Note: the Guardian went from telling me "This will be a front page story - unless Gordon Brown dies" with a follow-up in the Sunday Observer to a watered down 750 words on page 6 printed after a 6 week delay where the journalist who wrote the piece ended up in near tears of frustration saying "I'm as concerned as you are tha this story hasn't been printed"
I will publish more taped phone calls on this subject at a later date.
WW: “Right, it’s between you The Guardian and the Virgin Group – OK”
JS: “OK – well it’s a shame because I think I have given you the opportunity to try and protect Virgin against this and ..”
WW: “I’d love to try and protect Virgin which is why I have done what I can, I have put you….”
JS: “Do you have any opinion as to what I should do – should I forward this to my MP, whether that would be a good thing to do?”
WW: “Do you know what – you can do whatever you want but if you do you have to take the consequences of being sued for libel”
JS: “No, that’s fine, I’m happy to take that consequence”
WW: “Well, you know I would think about that consequence because I don’t know what your allegations are..”
JS: “Well you do not what they are, I’ve just made them to you Will.”
WW: “I work for an incredibly honourable company and when it uncovers and wrongdoing in the business it’s always been the first to be up front about it even if the consequences of that are serious.
It happened with Virgin Atlantic Airways and British Airways and something that we uncovered in the business there that was going on”
JS: “Is that when you reported British Airways for doing the same thing that Virgin were doing?"
Note: The irony of Virgin being given immunity from fines and prosecution for Whistle-Blowing on BA may not be lost on the reader in the context of my treatment by Virgin as a Whistle-Blower.
WW: NO, no, no – yes – er no, no. It was something that happened in the last year and a half with the fuel price surcharges”
JS: “Yes, that’s what I’m saying but in that situation what was interesting is that Virgin were willing to, er, you know disclose in the public interest that British Airways were behaving in the same way that Virgin were”
WW: “No, we went through a process and found out if there was any substance to anything first – you’ve got to let a process happen.”
JS: “Yes, and then British Airways ended up being fined enormously didn’t they?”
WW: “But you have to let a process happen …people who are uninvolved in the situation and make wild allegations in a very manic sort of way then you can’t expect to get anywhere. So just take your time (WW voice is rising at this point, he is clearly quite distressed). If there is a problem he will identify it and he will sort it.”
JS: “I feel quite calm Will, I get the feeling you are not too calm about this”
WW: “I’m perfectly calm, I’ve just got back and you have called me three times today (sic). I’m not involved in this situation, if I was and I worked in the Virgin Group I would happily be dealing with it but I no longer do that job”
JS – “But you work for Virgin Galactic – is that right?”
WW: “I run it”
JS: “So you have some interest in the Virgin Group being seen to respond intelligently to my complaints.”
WW: “Sorry, I am going to say this in words of one syllable. I have passed your message on to the individual concerned OK”
JS: “And all I’m trying to warn you Will is I don’t think Josh is responding to me”
WW: “I’m sure he will respond to you, it’s Saturday afternoon”
JS: “Mmm. Well, there you go, I’ve done what I can to try and warn you Will that this is happening. If you feel you have to try and explain things in words of one syllable to me then I think you don’t understand what I am saying”
WW: “Josh is Virgin’s Group General Counsel. He is involved with you about a business that is nothing to do with me whatsoever. If I still worked for Virgin Group I would not be saying that but I left Virgin Group to go and do this job. I have no interest in Virgin Healthcare at all, one way or t’other.”
JS: “Ok – or in the reputation of the Virgin Group as a whole?”
WW: “That is a different question”
JS: “That’s the question I’m raising with you Will.”
WW: “That’s why I am confident that my colleague will deal with the matter effectively with you”
JS: “I have written eight, I think, emails to Gordon (McCallum) and Josh about this without reply, I’ve made phone calls without reply…..”
WW: “Oh, you know what, I don’t…a lot of what you are saying now begins to smack of a conspiracy”
JS: “Well I think there is a little bit of a conspiracy”
WW: “I have given your email to Josh, I will email him again and tell him you have called me again - OK?”
JS: “OK – thank you, goodbye”
NB – in relation to this transcript I was informed by Josh Bayliss that if I released my concerns into the public domain I would be subject to ‘criminal sanctions – including imprisonment” (see email).
What are Virgin so concerned about?
Why won't the Guardian print the story?
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